Entrepreneurs Richard mcclucky and Stuart Mackenzie Walker are first up They're hoping their board game business Will appeal to the dragons competitive Natures but will they be on top of their Game with their pitch let's find out What are my pants doing up there Hello dragons my name is Richard Mcclucky and I'm Stuart Mackenzie Walker Together we are pants on fire games Limited today we are looking for a 50 000 pound investment for 10 of our Company pants on fire games uh is a Small independent company we create Award-winning board games and party Games we've been uh going since about 2009 and we now have seven games in our Range We currently Supply Waterstones hamlays Amazon toy master And wh Smith It should be Um oh sorry yes Um in terms of our best deal so far we Managed to get HMV to stock all of our Games however in terms of actual payment This turned out to be our least Successful deal because they went Bankrupt this left a rather large hole In our finances which was still Recovering from so before you ask any Want to ask us any questions I was Wondering if you'd just like to have a Go at one of the questions from Liar
Liar yes please yes okay So I'll briefly explain how uh it Actually works when you ask a question On your go you are The Question Master Because it's a multiple choice you give Two answers you always give the correct Answer and then you make one up and if You're struggling to make one up there's An option on the card that you can use Uh to help you out so so if you want to Have a try Duncan Right okay the air force of which European country only provides planes During working hours on weekdays is it Nova Scotia or Switzerland Switzerland That's the correct answer so if someone Chooses your lie you win a lie card That's in the game and you have to have A like card to be able to win the game So in an estate so yes your questions Please Sorry sorry Peter Um You said that you've lost a lot of money With HMV yes um what has that done to You it nearly crippled us to be honest In figures it cost us uh 20 000 pounds Um So this year we made a loss of four Thousand pounds just below four thousand Yeah we we would have made a profit if It hadn't been for uh the HMV situation Okay so what did you turn over last year
We turned over 67 000 pounds and uh net Loss of just under 4 000 pounds okay so What does the company look like today How much has it got in debt we're 56 000 Pounds in debt That's with uh 20 20 000 pound bank loan And then 30 sorry 30 30 36 000 pounds Which is loans from friends and family Bank debts or audit there's an overdraft An overdraft of ten thousand pounds Right So basically you're coming into the den Trying to wing it with liar liar pants On fire uh that's what you're trying to Do isn't it no This guy's this that's not a business is It yes it is yeah you must have Full-time jobs no no this is this is it And if you've got are you wealthy Individuals no not at all no no [Laughter] No I can't work out with you in here Looking for an investment or bailout Well we need the money that's why we're Here because we need the money what is The most successful game out there and What kind of money does it make well uh Monopolies the top selling game at a Hundred thousand after that there's the Likes of Cluedo Um uh Scrabble so basically the ones You're naming are the ones that have Been around for a million years yes we
Realized we're taking on the traditional Games but we feel our games are a lot More fun but what was funny about what We just did Well there's quirky questions and being Able to make something up and trying to Fool with your friends or family into Believing a wrong answer but where's the Money in it though I had a board game Called Big Business have you heard of That yes yes right do you know how many We sold 15 000. how do you know that Research because wow okay we're Impressed and I don't mind saying It shocked me how well we did but it Also shocked me we didn't make any money We honestly I it's a it's an anomaly It's weird because everybody said to me Peter if you get this game we sell 10 000 it's going to be brilliant and we Surpassed that so quickly but it was Surprising to sell so many games and not Make any money if you don't mind saying Peter I know if we sold 15 000 of one of Our games it would make a profit on it It's all such small numbers isn't it Well at the moment yes it is yeah the Way I sort of imagine you guys is you're Like vinyl records And they're getting smaller and smaller And they're going off High Street into The basement yeah it's very hard to make An investment I think as an as an Investment it is I've got to say it's
Pants So on that basis I'm afraid I'm out It's not looking good for the Entrepreneurs as Piers Lenny Maneuvers His way out of the deal And Deborah meaden is ready to have her Say My worry about this is that you are Already in debt And when people are in debt they tend to Focus on getting themselves out of Trouble rather than being able to say Right there's the money to drive this Business forward so I'm afraid Amen okay thank you very much Eyes Come in here in the first thing that's In my mind is the fact that the money That I would give you would get you out Of a black hole rather than me thinking About what it is that you've got I don't Know enough about games and to be honest I'm a bit bored by what I've seen I hate to say it but it's just not Something that I'm sort of enthusiastic About or even think that I want to get Involved in so I'm afraid I'm out who's your nearest competitor Who invents and produces a number of Games there's there's probably two other Companies in the UK that do that about Our sort of size slightly smaller the Difference between what those people do And what we do is that we invent these
Games yes us too that have invented all These games the other guys it tends to Be similar sort of games in this along The same theme yeah I'm just a little bit on the edge well I I think I think if one of these games is Successful we will be absolutely Delighted if one goes Global that would Be the ultimate thing and if these five Or six won't we've got three that we Want to produce next year that we've Already got in Prototype form two for This year look I'll I'll assessed it You know and I think what you need to Bring these games Is my sense of humor yes That's funny in itself that's what it's All about and I don't want to stick 50 000 into this At a moment on my own so what I'm going To do is I'm going to try this I'm going To make an offer Okay okay and after I made the offer the Only person who said is Peter Okay So I'm going to feel half the money Okay 25 000. But I want 15 of the company [Music] An unexpected development as Duncan Bannatyne puts in a much needed offer But the entrepreneurs aren't quite in The clear yet will Peter Jones rescue
Them with a matching bid Duncan's a sharp County investor so he's Obviously seen something Actually I better have you seen Something ducks I just think it It would be an exciting and enjoyable Gamble I mean I don't normally Gumball But there's just something about it Well on the basis of that I'm going to Make you an offer as well Okay And I got a few 25 000 pounds for Twenty percent of the business I would also prefer it that Duncan owned The same share as me yeah well I presume Duncan you want to are you staying at 15 With the offer well I would have done But Peter has indicated that he wants me Of the same shareholders him so I've got To go to twenty percent [Music] Tough tactics from the dragons as they Raise the equity stake demanded to 40 Percent leaving a difficult decision for The entrepreneurs [Music] Do you mind if we have a little chat Yeah help yourself absolutely okay Brilliant thank you As soon as they've got the money back Down to 25. yeah okay okay Um yeah I I look great thank you very Much for the offers we're delighted uh
That you've made those offers Um we can't go to 40 percent So I'm just wondering uh we had a Maximum that we had in mind before we Came in here Um and that maximum was 25 now I don't Think you're going to come down to 25 But I think what would be reasonable and Fair would be if you could both agree on 15 with the possibility of once you've Got your investment back you reduce it To 12 and a half so the offer is 25 Percent How does that sound for you I'd be happy to reduce to 15. If I get my money back I don't know what do you think don't Yeah I'd match that so we'll we'd offer 50 000 for 40 and our percentage reduces To 30 between us when we get money back Yeah I I our preferred option was Clearly with with you guys But we can't go to 40 percent So I'm sticking with my offer at 30 Reducing to 25 once we've paid you back Uh Would you take that No Sometimes we each opportunities where we Don't know where to be driven by the Heart or the head And in this case I've not been driven by Either I've been driven by the Excitement
And not by my wallet if I've been driven Purely by my wallet I wouldn't be Investing My wallet says no So you know that you've had the best Offer Would you would you mind if we Again yeah no thank you you've got You've got a new game here this is It's Called Double Bluff Um Right uh Peter Duncan would like to Accept your offer thank you very much Thank you Victory at last do you two work well Together yeah The pants on fire team leave The Den With two new players and their cash Oh We got Duncan brilliant I know brilliant Yeah Okay we've got Richard That's way more than we wanted That was the good that was the right Percentage though I think you were right To stick with that because you're going To break the amount you're going to Bring to that that's going nowhere Without you yeah what lovely people yeah They're not mean at all no well it Shouldn't be the dragon's Denis I think It should be the fairies then Foreign My name is Rachel Lowe and I'm the
Managing director of RTL games Limited I'm pitching for 75 000 and this is my First product destination London being Launched this year at hamleys of London The Portsmouth Edition is being launched At Cascade Shopping Center in Portsmouth Now I came up with the idea for this Game whilst working as a taxi driver in Portsmouth to pay my way through my University law degree at the University Of Portsmouth I then spent several Months researching the industry and I Found a huge gap in the market tourism 13 million tourists go through London Every year and it doubles up as a Perfect souvenir of the city the players Pieces are Miniature London taxis The destinations on the board are all Famous tourist attractions and the idea Of the game is that you have to earn as Much money in a shift as possible Further investments will mean that I can Forget future additions to Market which Includes destination New York Destination Paris in fact any capital City of any country it really is a Fantastic investment opportunity thank You for listening Rachel is looking for 75 000 pounds in Exchange for a 30 stake in her company With her finished sample and her promise Of a launch at hamley's toy store she Seems confident but will she persuade The dragons to part with their money
Can I look at the board of course yeah How do you play it Um you will start at the rank And the idea of the game is you have to Get to as many destinations as you can Can I go in any direction I want once I've drawn a dice yeah you can so if I Got a three and I got this traffic light It means that you pick up a traffic Light card and then you follow the Instructions The kind of thing it'll be you have been Caught doing 30 miles per hour pay a 60 Pound fine and you will receive three Points on your license So in this game then if I get 12 points To lose my license you do you have to Buy it right back for a fee and it's an Enjoyable yeah it's good fun and it does Work it's been tried many times Rachel's working hard to interest the Dragons in her board game but a good Product is only part of the package Doug Richard wanted to know about her Marketing campaign and in particular her Launch at the best known toy store in Britain Tell me about your hamley's relationship What exactly have you agreed with Hamlet How many is it going to launch this Product I mean they're the most Established uh you can assume I know who Hanley's is okay they're going to launch This product what does that mean I mean
They could launch the product by for Example putting a table in the front of The store and stacking it high that's a Launch at high profile launch I'll have Some celebrities Celebrities that have got children You're going to pay the celebrities or Organize the celebrities to come to Organize the celebrities what are Hammers actually doing off their own Bike with their own money in their own Time well all they will do is they will Organize the press and the media to be There and what I will do is I will make Sure that I've got um you know enough Promotional material outside what you Mean is that hamlers we'll tell the Press there's going to be a launch and The Press will decide whether or not to Turn up and even if they do a turn up Then the newspaper will decide whether Or not they want to print it so you may Get nothing out of it Are you press wise press-wise possibly It's not going well Rachel was pinning Her hopes on her hamley's launch but the Dragons are skeptical they aren't Convinced that a celebrity endorsed Board game will guarantee her any Publicity at all Rachel Eleanor needs Convincing on other matters foreign How many units of Monopoly are sold a Year 700 000 across the world or in in The UK alone isn't that a pretty big
Competitor if I was looking for a board Game which is a souvenir of London Aren't you up against a massive Competitor there because it's the Biggest you know Monopoly is the most Established board game but what I've got To do is get a distributor that will Give me the same presence within the Marketplace that Monopoly has this will Sell any Distributors don't give you Market presence then you have to have a Sales force to pursue the retailer to Tell the distributor Senate a Distributor is a place where stuff is Held so you you misunderstand the role Of the distributor in the marketplace They don't push products into Market They don't know the net profits to do it Is the Market's leading distributor and If they have a product that is in Woolworths then they advertise it and That is why they're the markets leading Distributor do you know how many new Games are introduced every year I mean New games yes board games in the UK Market Um I think there's about 20 each year Being introduced and what percentage of Them last more than a year I don't know that Okay Rachel's struggling to answer the Questions and under the scrutiny of the Dragon she's starting to look unprepared
She desperately needs 75 000 pounds of Investment Simon Woodruff has made his decision [Music] Rachel Um I think it's brilliant what you're doing And it may do very well But I don't think it's an investment Because I don't think you're far enough On it's very hard for a third-party Investor to actually make an investment In somebody who's not actually got that Business experience so I think you're Going to do well with it but it's not an Investment yet Okay Rachel has lost the interest of Simon Woodruff who's not prepared to Gamble on her lack of experience he's The first dragon out but Peter Jones has Similar concerns Rachel from my perspective I think that The gaming Market we all know is very Competitive and I think what you're Trying to do I think is very inventive But the level of experience that you've Got in running a business is obviously Of a major concern I don't actually want To invest in somebody that actually is Going to go through that learning Experience because there's going to be Too many and too many pitfalls okay so On that basis I'm not going to invest in The business
Rachel has also lost the confidence of Peter Jones so Rachel elnort Doug Richard and Duncan banatine are the only Dragons left Although Doug Richard has already Spotted some major flaws in Rachel's Business he hasn't finished with her yet So what's your fiscal year when does Your year start as a company you are a Company I'm a company yes a limited Company yeah so I've been set up limited Since November what level of Revenue are You committing to create in the first Year in the first year yes the one that Starts at the beginning of December this Year and ends the end of November next Year Um I would say minimum thirty thousand Units can we use Um Pounds Sterling instead of units for The purpose of discussion how much money Do you intend to create how much revenue Do you intend to take in in the first Year in the first year two hundred Thousand okay will you make any money on That or will you lose money on that make Money so what is your estimated profit At the end of the first year Loosely Speaking I was trying to get a feel for It Um Doug Richard is the last person any Entrepreneur would want to face if they Didn't know their figures and Rachel
Seems to be out of her depth If she can't give convincing answers She's going to lose him the pressure is On Thous within one year the net profit on That is 190 000. no the gross profit on It might be 190 000 but the net profit Certainly is not well I was working out The difference between eight pound fifty And the um as you were working on the Gross profit okay misunderstood I'm Interested in your net profit I'm Interested in whether the company after Running its overheads and your salary And everything else ends up with a Profit at the end of the first year and The answer is okay and the estimated Profit on that is approximately 180 000 For the first year okay You've just lost me completely my Interest we can't even have a basic Business discussion it is entirely Impossible for you to have 190 000 pound Net profit on 255 000 pounds of sales After we've just gone through a Discussion that your costs are greater Than that have all of these figures in My head it is not a matter of precision Of numbers you know I don't care if You're even close but you don't have in Your head a sense of it what annoys me Is that you have managed to put all this Effort and time into something and yet Stand here in front of me and be a
Wasted opportunity I'm annoyed for you I'm annoyed at you maybe this is going To be the best learning experience of Your life and maybe you will succeed but I'm out Okay Rachel has been torn apart by Doug Richard and her confidence is Vanishing Fast she still needs to raise the full 75 000 pound she came for but just two Dragons remain Duncan bannatyne and Rachel Elmore her chances of winning Them over look slim I'm amazed actually that you could not Know the difference between gross profit And net profit Now I do know the difference I just got Confused with the question because I Didn't have my figures in front of me at All not from a sheet of paper you should Learn it Um I think you'd probably regret not Having done that today but that's a Landing copy so I hope you've learned Something and you've learned enough to Continue so I'm out as well thank you Duncan bannatyne has also been put off By Rachel's shaky grasp of the figures With him out the only dragon left is Rachel L North It doesn't seem like you've prepared Very well to come in front of us today You don't know the difference between Gross profit and net profit you haven't
Got the figures in your head quite apart From the fact of whether it will sell or Not and I think there's big question Marks over that it will sell because It's not only got the tourism Market It's got the mainstream market Rachel I do feel for you because you've come You've come into this environment you Remind me of a bit like a sort of lamb To the slaughter in some ways I think Your presentation was a bit confused I Don't get the sense that you've just got That that kind of business snappiness Um It really isn't an investment for me I'm Afraid I wouldn't back you It's the end of the road for Rachel She's leaving the Dragon's Den with Nothing when it came down to it it was Rachel's pitch and not her board game That cost her the investment She just seemed too nice and just be Eaten alive in business she's a crappy Investment [Music] Rachel you must have been taken aback by The sort of negative reaction you got I Was because I mean I've done lots of Business presentations and I've always Coped with it but accounting isn't my Strong point I can't have figures in my Head it's something that I do need on Paper but there's many successful Business people
Um that don't necessarily do the figures But you know they'll have someone else And when I'm successful I'll have Someone else doing it for me Foreign [Music] Good afternoon my name is Danny bumping Um I'm here today to try and raise a Hundred thousand pounds Um four bedding puzzles And bedroom puzzles limited launched the Cube the Bedlam Cube our Flagship Product at hamleys of London and we Outsold the newly relaunched Rubik's Cube by five Cubes To One There's 19 186 different work Variations of putting these 13 geometric Different shapes back into the box and After three and a half years of playing With this puzzle nearly every day Finally on boxing day And managed to do it And then we've taken the development a Step further Um with corporate cubes this is one I've Made up for my football team I support Bolton Wanderers we probably won't sell That many of these ones but we have made A Manchester United one and an Arsenal One a Chelsea one and that kind of thing Now hopefully today that maybe one of You would might take on the cube and Invest in it and help create Bedlam
Around the world Danny bamping wants a hundred thousand Pounds to Market and promote his Bedlam Cube in return he's prepared to give Away 10 of his company When did you sell Rubik when we launched At hamleys right so you launched in the Under five weeks between lunch time and Christmas you sold we saw two thousand Units however your sales been since January compared to rubric cubes and That store Um well we've exceeded them very much I'm not sure exactly on the the ratio But I think it might be two to one so Every obviously Rubik's Cube we've sold Two bedroom cubes yeah yeah we've done Really well and how many are really Pleased they've said that it's one of The best product launches they've ever Had What are your projections for this Business Daniel I think it will do 20 to 30 of what the Rubik's Cube did so when You look at the Rubik's Cube did 100 Million units in five years Um that I think this has got the Potential to it to at least 30 million Units in five years so your entire Business plan is built on doing 30 of The one of the most successful toys in History well I think is that correct To a certain extent I think that's your Conservative view yeah that's like I
Said I think this has got bigger Potential With good initial sales Dany is brimming With confidence about the potential for His puzzle Rachel elnor has a technical Issue she once clarified Danny do you have any um so it seems Like a trivial question but how do you Actually get them made up You've got well if it's so difficult Yeah in China your workers yeah you're Very smart well we we obviously have to Give them the solution so that they come Manufactured in a certain way and the Interesting thing is that because people Have bought the cube say they bought one In hanley's before Christmas after Christmas we had a lot of people hitting The website to buy the solution To people for 10 pounds Smart man Danny I'd like to know about you and I Don't know whether we've talked about You Um what's your background I am a Serial Entrepreneur I've got other business Interests as well Um so you've got various irons and fires Yes and I do a lot of PR as well for for Other clients that I've got that I'm Doing projects with and in my spare time I look for big cats I'm sure you've Heard of the stories of Beast of bodmin Moore and all that kind of thing never
Heard I don't know I haven't got a clue It's a you know it's a big cat it's a Leopard you know and we've got an Incident at the moment where there's a Puma running around Dartmoor so I I keep The police informed from that Perspective and the public Um and yeah I'm a citizen as well I am Yeah absolutely but my my complete total Focus at the moment is the bedroom Cube Danny's other interests could distract Him from his Bedlam puzzle Venture Theoper fetus wants to bring the focus Back to the business opportunity I'm Going to start With financials retail price this is Between 9.99 and 12.99 right how much do You sell it to the retailer just over Five pounds and how much they cost you To produce and really produce them and We produce them in the Far East and the Cost price to us is less than two Dollars The impressive profit margin has sparked Interest amongst the dragons Danny came into the den looking for a Hundred thousand pounds for ten percent Of his company Duncan bannatyne is ready To test the water how negotiable is the Percentage of equity they're offering Well it depends obviously how much You're willing to put in of that um I Suppose that sweating well this wasn't a Spinner 100 000 what's what why could we
Did with the offer If it was just the money yeah 10 really That's what I'm looking for Um Depends I really offer is really I mean You know get down to Country numbers and But uh and offers an offer of an Officers are you making enough I'm Asking you what percentage you would Give me for a hundred thousand pounds Well my an initial uh Focus was 10 Um but I would be able to maybe go up to 15 or maybe we could talk about 20 I Don't think I'm going to go much above That Okay I'll think about that okay Danny unless you were willing to Radically revise your Equity position I Couldn't even begin To consider investment so unless you're Willing to take like in the neighborhood Of Say unless you were willing to discuss Selling approximately 40 or more of your Company for a hundred thousand I'll have To bow out Okay well I'll certainly can you know Consider it Oh you're this is the moment consider Away I'm asking [Music] [Music] Doug Richard wants a much bigger slice For his hundred thousand pounds
Will Danny be tempted to sell more of His company For 40 40 of the business I think it's I mean if you were going to Put twice as much in say 200 000 then That would be the equivalent of putting In a hundred thousand for twenty percent Which was not the offer I made the offer I made was a hundred thousand for forty Percent then at this point in time I'd Have to decline that All dragons remain to Jones who's been Playing with the puzzle since Danny Started his pitch is about to show his Cards [Music] Danny I think you can probably see what I Think of the product I am mesmerized by I think it's really a Great product I really do what I don't Like necessarily is actually the fact That you classified yourself as a serial Entrepreneur what that tells me is that This is a one hit wonder for you and Whilst it's going well that's great but Actually that next opportunity down the Road you're off you're gone if I made an Investment in you yes because that's What the investment is what commitment Are you going to make in return Well I'll be I'm as I have been for the Last two or three years since I started The product development I'm completely
Committed to bed and puzzles right now And I don't see myself going off and Doing something else I've I've got and Would you prove that by setting up the Holding company and the investment I Make is in Danny Holdings Limited well I've actually set up I've actually set Up a holding company okay well I'll Invest the whole money for 35 of Danny Holdings By investing in the holding company Peter Jones would own a part of all Danny's other business interests not Just Bedlam puzzles So 35 of the holding company is Too much of a stake and I wanted to Bring the focus back to obviously trying To maybe do a deal with bed and puzzles Limited deals here right now it's on the Table I won't negotiate but it's right there Let's take it or leave it time [Music] [Applause] Danny just before you go back to Peter Um I think this is a great product thank You and I think it's a brilliant gift Brilliant price you've got a good margin Going on it but from from what I've seen Just based on this product I'd be happy to make an offer to you for Half of what you need 50 000 for 15 of Bedlin puzzles Right
Okay so that's my hat thrown in the ring Okay thank you for that and just I do Have retail contacts and experience Into department stores and and some Other outlets Danny Danny they're both Fakes are they you're the real thing I've got the shops that actually sell These really cancel these what shops are Those uh station store called Partners Oh right yeah you've heard of it I have Yeah yeah Um they could sell these for Christmas I Could actually put an order in now oh Feel free I will do the hundred thousand For 25 percent Okay There are now three Deals on the table [Music] To Jones has offered the full hundred Thousand pounds but in return he wants 35 of all Danny's ideas Rachel elnor has offered half the money For a 15 stake in just the puzzle Business but theoper fetus has made the Best offer all the money for a 25 stake In the puzzle Listen you've had some fantastic overs Here so I want to make my position clear Okay I'm out okay So it's time for Danny bamping to make The most important decision of his Business life [Music]
Okay so I think I've Better say to yourself that I'm really Intrigued and flattered that you would Like to invest in by holding company but That's not what the offer was on the Table today but just before you turn That down yeah because I feel that's What you're going with well almost You're an entrepreneur you've got a yeah Think think with your mind just not with Your wallet it's not just about the Money and I don't want to be not in Control of my holding company Well I've been turned down so everything Come out you're out Danny has turned down Peter Jones Come up with his own idea of how to get Himself a better deal [Music] Would you be able to look at maybe Working with Theo and maybe doing Something that where you both took the Same amount of equity State for the same Amount of money say 10 for 50 000 each Because that would give me obviously the Money that I've come for I've given away Twice as My Equity as I wanted to but You both bring added value to the Company And that to me is a very Advertising Proposition
You're renegotiating now and you know What happens when you renegotiate don't You I usually win do you well what Happens people then think again I think Maybe are they going too cheap so maybe If you're going to renegotiate I'll say I offered you a hundred thousand for 25 Percent Do you know I think I went in too cheap I think I should have gone for 30 Percent For a hundred thousand yeah [Music] [Applause] So you could either persuade Theo to Split that offer 50 000 for 15 50 000 For 15 or take his whole yes would you Do that would you do that Would you do that exactly what Rachel Said Rachel what are you going to bring to The party other than your hard-earned Cash Well I think I said it before I've got Lots of retail contact contacts with all The key department stores And really to get to meet these numbers You need to get in the big place yes I Mean now yeah to get into their Christmas Ranges what we're saying here is that You would actually make direct Introduction into those buyers oh yeah In that case I'll let you come in
Oh that's very nice view Theo Well you've got a deal if you want to Accept it yeah okay [Music] Tame the dragons he got the hundred Thousand pounds it came for and after Some top negotiating it was Rachel Elenor and Theo perfetus who won the Deal Goodbye bye that's a great product Brilliant price it is a brilliant gift For Christmas The bedland cube well done great good Investment done guys well done thank you That must be one of the most successful Pitches we've seen up here I mean they All wanted it maybe apart from Duncan it Was I was pretty gobsmacked really it Was a very very exciting at one point And with Peter wanting to take equity in My holding company but you did in the End take an offer 30 of the business you Sold when Theo had given you a better Offer of only 25 that I think that it Was a good offer because you know I get I get the boss of best parties I get Videos experience and Rachel's perhaps The funniest moment was really when Doug Worked out that your business plan was Essentially modeled on the Rubik's Cube Which let's face it was a very Successful company you you don't lack Ambition quite and I think the thing is That the Venom cube is better than the
Rubik's Cube in many ways I mean the Rubik's Cube was that easy you just took The stickers off Um but the bedroom cube is is is Actually the I suppose one of the Hardest challenges personal challenges You can ever have well you've got one of You've got a pretty big challenge in Front of you now we really look forward To seeing how you get on very well done Danny thanks so much [Music] [Music] Hello everyone my name is Chris Olivia And my colleague here is James Eden And we are founder members of a company Called qlica limited that we're looking For 80 000 pounds in return for 10 Equity in the company James Hello everybody I'm James I'm the Inventor of the culica and the culica is The greatest game invention since Playing cards and chess And you play the Q liquor with pegs and The pegs they're slot into the Q liquor And you can play games by putting pegs In according to different rules and These games have names like two colors We've got queue molecular cue snakes Got k-match and Q combat And the great thing about the acrylic is You can play the games that are Multiplayer games or you can play single
Player games We do recognize it's much of a Touchy-feely type game Um so the best way I guess to get to Know it is if you want to complete a Semi-started game Jones will explain Yeah Thank you very much yeah no problem Thank you good afternoon I will explain That in just a second This bug It's a bag yeah you're gonna watch the Vine has anyone else want to yeah Each bug's got a different coloring That's right yeah so the walls in this Case are you have to get four innovo Straight Or the Innovative diagonal through the Right diagonal yeah we're not buying Moving ones that are already here Yeah and you pass on nickel to the next Person along in the bow so oh I see so I Want to get green so I take one at Agreement okay so I'm going to put the Green one in there okay so the idea is That is Duncan trying to get four in a Value you see and we're trying to stop Him that's right that's right I'm gonna Block him There you go there you go good block I Blocked him yeah Huh Oh that that wins very good all right so Go oh yeah so you set up so just one and
I don't even get a go but you know what I think Duncan moved one of the yellow Pegs just leave it all right Peter Problem was Duncan went first [Music] Amongst the dragons Is Not Unusual in The den but former work friends James Eden and Chris Olivia Hope to turn it to Their advantage with a demonstration of Their new multi-game Cube they're Looking for 80 000 pounds of dragon cash To establish it on the market A bewildered Peter Jones is first to Question the duo Hi I'm Peter When you were doing your pitch You were doing I hadn't yeah What I was doing was simply doing some Gestures like key snakes was cute snakes Is like a snake so this is a snake right Combat right but why is the cup what's That that's uh my impression of somebody A combat move in a martial art all right But that has nothing to do with the game Itself demonstrating the word combat That's right yeah word association word Associations so that we might get it Well obviously that was a failed Strategy that was it James Chris hi I'm Deborah hi Deborah First thing I want to understand is Where the business is at the moment I'm Not sure are you already in production
And selling them or is this still at Protein well first no we have our first Production run arriving in the country At the moment yeah we have five thousand Ordered and our online store has been Open literally a few days and are you Selling to any retailers have you Approached any retailers we have a Distributor doing that for us yes okay And where where are they are they Approached anybody have they taken any Orders we have Um a firm offer if not a formal order From Lakeland basically they're giving Us a paperwork for 800 units with Another 200 to 400 units there's no odd Number on it if you like literally yet And the distributor give me an idea of How much they think they're going to Sell of this game I can't give you Concrete numbers because it's not a Science but what I will say is probably The best way of saying it then is is Um of the games that they sell yes How many will they sell of a very Successful game they're selling into all The major Distributors included take one Of the games they currently sell yeah And tell me what they consider good Sales We don't know The jovial atmosphere is long gone as More pressing business concerns come to The fore IGN
Okay the product you're obviously Incredibly passionate about it I've got To be honest I've seen nothing that Tells me I can't wait to go and get a Sample and play with it your order book Doesn't say people think they want to Take it home and play with it I mean Obviously you have to bear in mind that We are new you know we just come on to The market and we've got intent from Handlers and our distributor said that Hamlin's never ever stock anything from A new company before the product is Selling right let me just tell you Something let me just take your Distributing he seems to stumbled on Somebody who just tells you what you Want to hear Essentially I think what we're dealing Here with is a revolutionary product and In the talk of the marketing speak you Know we call it a disruptive technology Our greatest strength and greatest Weaknesses it's a novelty and my opinion Is this this game is going to get Popular they're going to be early Adopted people like chess players bridge Players poker players yeah people who Like mind games they will adopt to their Parents or buy it because it gets the Kids away from the television right this Game makes you smarter and this Invention is going to set the toy world On fire
It's going to make millions of pounds in A very short amount of time A bold and passionate fight back from The creative brain of the business But will James's steadfast belief in the Product be shared by Hilary duvet Chris James have I got this right you've Actually got five thousand of this Product on the sea on its way to you now No it's actually in our warehouse you've Got it yeah I'm selling today yes and Bear in mind we're investing our own Money yep and it's money we can afford To lose so we're taking a business risk And it's on our heads the amazing thing Is right we can't we got orders we've Got intent from handlers right that's Unprecedented right this means no no no No no no no no no no no no no no no Professional they're in the toy industry Please they also have Chris don't don't Start talking when he stops talking I want to ask you one question Do you want me to be Polite Or honest but we're always looking for Honest feedback so far we've had very Positive feedback It's the most boring game I have ever Seen you would play it twice at the very Very most and for that reason I'm not Going to invest and so I am out First blow blood for the Plucky Duo as An indignant Duncan bannatyne walks away
From the deal and now theoper fetus is Ready to have his say Foreign The games Market is incredibly Competitive And if your peaked selling period which Is Christmas is when you sell most of Your toys and you know what they do They discount them So you kill your margin at the time You're selling most of your product it's Not and you will find this out as you Get this big orders from these retailers You hope to get You've got some stocking it's not a huge Amount of stock it's 5 000 units you'll Know within those 5 000 units whether You've got a business here or not you Will know whether we're right or we're Wrong if we're wrong you won't need the Money if we're right we've saved our Money but I'm gonna have to say I'm out Chris James You may well sell a few you might sell The 5 000 that have landed here today But commercially No Love No I don't think it's going to be the Market leader that you protest it will Be it's not an investable product for me I'm sorry I'm out [Music] Two more dragons out and now the Duo's Den fate lies in the hands of Deborah
Meaden and Peter Jones will they find a Reason to invest 80 000 pounds Um I don't know I can only go on gut Reaction you're you're clearly Smart Guys you might have invented the next Great thing the problem for me is I Didn't find it that exciting And I'm out Guys what's sad about it is that I love All these types of things from the Rubik's Cube as a kid all the way Through I've always had these sort of Things and I don't know whether it's the Game or whether it was the way that You've put it across But it just doesn't do it for me and I Think at that moment you've got to make A decision do I want to invest my money Into it Would I buy one so I'm weighing those Questions up firstly I wouldn't buy one And secondly you wouldn't invest my Money I'm going to say I'm out Okay thank you very much would you like A business card no yeah Thank you good luck guys James and Chris's enthusiasm for their product may Have won the affection of the Dragons But not their cash the duo leave with Nothing [Music]
You know where we asked the dragons to Play the game what we didn't anticipate Would happen which was a disaster was Duncan started to avenge in the pegs Moving them all over the place yeah I Think that what we'll do we'll certainly Take on board their criticisms and we'll Analyze them and reanalyze them and then If we don't get too much cognitive Dissonance then we might actually learn Something [Music] [Music] All right Hi I'm Ed this is Emmy and we're here to Ask for 200 000 pounds worth of Investment in our company gaming alerts For 10 steak Gaming alerts is the umbrella site for Four comparison sites poker alerts Bingo Alerts Casino alerts and bookie alerts Each comparison site Provides users with the latest odds Offers tournament information Um to our hunters and in the same way That confused.com or money Supermarket Makes its money by referring customers To sites like Norwich Union we make our Money by referring customers to William Hill poker stars and the like Basically what Um we've got what our unique selling Point is is in our name gaming alerts Users can download from any one of our
Five websites Um gaming alerts their desktop it's Completely free and They can opt in to receive poker Casino Bingo or sports betting alerts or any Combination of the above Just like sky and BBC news alerts Deliver the latest breaking news to Their users we do the same with ours and We're obviously delivering them the best Offers whether that be special betting Opportunities on a sporting event best Odds promotions from Bingo suppliers Where to find the best free roll Tournaments for poker that's the sort of Idea This shows how the alert looks obviously It sits down here on your desktop will Pop up there's advertising in here and Then obviously the message in here you Click through that go straight to the Website and we make our referral fee From The Operators That's it yep that's it [Music] Business partners Emmy Matthews and Ed Stevens have delivered a confident pitch For 200 000 pounds of investment in Their online gaming alerts company They're offering 10 equity in return but Casino owner Duncan bannatyne is already Dubious about some of their potential Markets Understand it in a poker or Casino site
But I don't understand it in our three Sites bingo bingo is massive there's Like three million people playing Bingo And bingo halls there's uh It's true you sit at home playing bingo Okay stop there please Because you're about to insult Mrs P The hard place bingo online every single Night great it's a great Market what's The statistics for Bingo just now we've Started the conversation online bingo Well the statistics Um I think it's about two million Um uh yeah playing online bingo two Million yeah people yeah it's huge if You go into the chat rooms online bingo Chat rooms it is manic let's look at the Projections for the next two years then Or the next three years lucky projection And turnover in profit Um for year one yep it's 1.2 million Turnover 740 net profit Year two is 2.1 million turnover and 1.5 Million net yep and year three it's 3.8 Million turnover and 3.net That sounds pain in the sky Um then the top um Affiliates that we'll Be competing with are easily making a Million pounds a year so we feel it's Easily achievable [Music] Duo are standing up well to the scrutiny Of the dragons
Deborah Maiden wants to know more about The two young entrepreneurs [Music] You know quite a bit about the gaming Industry what's your background we've Actually got two companies both in Online gaming One of them is a media planning and Buying company and we've been running That for a year and a half and this one We've we set the company up in October 2005. we've been concentrating on the Other one until February this year who's Running the other business Well at the moment Ed looks after most Of Jack media and I look after most of Gaming a lot can you just explain to us The other company exactly what it does It's a media agency so we plan and buy On behalf of our clients so they would Come to us with a marketing budget we Would take that and we'd Buy The best media we can to generate them a Return we use the money made in your Other company We feel we put you know 40 000 pounds or Thirty five thousand pounds of what is Pretty much our own money from Jack Media into it and you know we're happy To continue to do so but we've also put A lot of time enough into it as well and What we're saying is we don't have two Hundred thousand pounds the moment it's Growing organically and we want to kind
Of a kick start it really To reassure the dragons with their Business credentials Emmy and Ed have Drawn on their experience with a company They already own and run but the ploy Seems to have had the opposite effect Let me add Is there any way that you would consider Including the company that you've Developed in the media side In the overall deal no Why Two separate companies entirely Different because I think you've got a Conflict of interest here You've got a company running at the Moment so it's giving you nice incomes And now you want to think that actually I'll try and mug five dragons for 200 Grand and we're not trying to do that at All no no I think actually you'd be very Cleverly be able to manipulate with the Situation because I can see you working 70 80 of your other business and this I've got 200 Grand in this and I'm the One that's got to pick the baby up and Make it run but we wouldn't I mean Obviously we'd have a if you were to Invest in us we'd have agreements in Place that said either but you know the Agreements agreements like that just Don't work look I think there's that for Me is the biggest issue there's a Conflict of interest in your current
Business to what you're trying to launch Here and that's about management time And effort and that's why I'm out Foreign Peter Jones is the first dragon out Deborah meaden was initially impressed By the pair will she see past the Concerns of her rival You're very impressive you're both very Impressive I think your background you Clearly know a lot about the business And you've got track record But you've left me with a real problem You've made it virtually impossible for Me to invest in you If I was going to make you an offer I Would have to have so much of the Business That I know the end result would be You would lose interest in this business Because you'd given away a large Percentage share and you focus attention On your other business What kind of steak are you talking about I'm I genuinely really sorry but I'm out [Music] Two dragons have walked away from any Deal and Emmy and Ed's ambitious plans For investment are falling apart now James Khan is ready to show his hand Okay should I tell you where I am yeah The existing success on what you've done Already Is not that impressive you rattle off
The three-year numbers of what you're Going to make And I'm not really buying into that I I Find that just a little bit overly Ambitious For those Reasons I'm out Amy Um Ed I understand exactly what you're Trying to do here because I have been Approached by a few online gaming Companies who want access to my Membership base yeah but for reasons I'm Not going to I've always turned it down Um but because I've had so many Approaches I know just how very very Competitive this Market is As a lot of people doing this you're not The only people doing it you never ever Ever going to be a sort of money you're Projected So that's why I'm going to say ammo [Music] Disaster Theo per fetus is their last hope [Applause] [Music] [Applause] That just leaves me who's sitting here And I've written on my Bucket Rock in the hard place Because that's really where I am I would Love to invest in you too Seriously I am desperately trying to find ways in Which it makes sound economic commercial
Sense So I'm gonna give you one chance To Come up With something that might tempt me to Make this more commercial because 200 000 quid for 10 nowhere near But what can we ask you what you would Be prepared to invest in no you can't I've got 200 000 pounds to invest that's It that's all you're going to get from Me that's what we want Um what do you think Let's discussed I suppose can we have Two minutes discuss it The Last Dragon in does want to invest But the shrewd retail magnet knows he Holds all the cards The duo were originally offering 10 Equity Will they improve on it enough to clinch The deal [Music] Okay Right before you say you've got one Chance I'm not gonna sit here Negotiating no I know But we Originally we said we'd go no higher Than 20 but we feel that we'd love to Have you on board if you take 25 percent Foreign [Music] How did you not to go to back again
[Music] And this is the final offer It's a den first and an extraordinary Test of nerve for the young Entrepreneurs Play it wrong and the two hundred Thousand pound investment from theoper Fetus is off the table [Music] All right all right fine Okay I hate you're gonna go for this Because I've just managed to persuade it I pray you do 30. That is a compromise because we really Didn't want to go above 20. Right You got a deal Emmy and Ed have done it after a roller Coaster ride in the den they've Sacrificed 30 percent of their company To bring theoper fetus and his 200 000 Pounds into their business Well done Bye-bye good luck to you volunteer Great investment
